Happy New Grob 109 Owner

Subject: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: "Ray" <jb92563@GgGu5eH7tDcVFb9cWINwFiqo9lvp6I1U-wjbbbX9KhnC1Evmnu93DAIeLMzbaJd_En4bW9L2Eio.yahoo.invalid>
Date: 6/30/08 7:20 AM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

Well its official folks, I'm now the proud new owner of a Grob 109 N60BG formerly from Big Bear, CA, now based in Lake Elsinore, CA.

Just in time to take advantage of its miserly fuel sipping during record high fuel prices.

I had a hard time getting any work done as I had a steady stream of interested parties wanting to check it out and oogle at the new cool looking bird at the field.

I was the envy of GA aviation types as they related their $200 fuel bills and the glider guys as they knew no wave or remote soaring site was beyond my reach now.

I also have a list as long as my arm of people eager to hop in for a ride.

I'm looking forward to all the fun that lays ahead.

Ray

Subject: Re: [G109_Pilots] Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: lyonbyte
Date: 6/30/08 12:46 PM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

Congrats! We loves ours in Hawaii were the gas prices are thru the roof and we can glide on any of the Islands as opposed to being stuck on the North Shore of Oahu.

Subject: [G109_Pilots] Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: "Richard Depinay"<jeplane
Date: 7/1/08 8:13 AM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

From: Ray 

"I'm new to these intracacies of registration but since it has been passing annuals I assume its a legit combination. Ray"

That's a real assumption indeed! Passing an annual could mean that the last owner got away with finding an inpector willing to sign the paperwork for some hard cash. May not be the case in this instance, but still, it happens everyday!

Again, just because an aircraft passes an annual doesn't mean you shouldn't go deeper in the paperwork...

Richard
Phoenix, AZ

Subject: Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: "mahkceb30062" <beckham
Date: 6/30/08 9:14 PM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

Ray,

Congratulations on the new bird but looking at the pictures, I just
have to ask a few questions. What kind of prop do you have? It
appears to be a fixed pitch & obviously not the Hoffmann called for
in the TCDS. AFAIK there are no STC'd props for the G109 or G109B.
FAA records indicate you have Standard Airworthiness Certificate, has
it been changed to Experimental category or was it installed with a
337? If it was done on a 337 I'd love to get a copy. Prices for a new
(not a rebuild or recertification) Hoffman prop are pushing $8000.00
now. Is it primarily climb or cruise. If it's a climb prop, what kind
of cruise do you get. If it's cruise, what's you ROC. Thanks in
advance for the info once Congrats.

Bill

Subject: Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: Ray
Date: 7/1/08 7:39 AM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

The prop I have on the Grob is a Tennesee Prop wood 62x30.

It gets to about 3000rpm in straight level flight and cruises at about 75kts with that prop.

It climbs at about 400 fpm at 1000' but at 9500' its only about 300 fpm.

It seems based on the rpms that it is 1/3rd way between the Hoffman climb/cruise pitch more on the climb side.

It is the alternate till I get the Hoffman overhauled.

This Grob was an Experimental at one point and now Certified but the engine is still listed as AMA/Expr so perhaps the engine/prop combo is experimental and the airframe is certified?

I'm new to these intracacies of registration but since it has been passing annuals I assume its a legit combination.
Perhaps there is a 337 in the documentation but it is registered as a glider and I dont think gliders have an engine and prop as required equipment so....?

Ray

Subject: Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: "mahkceb30062" <beckham@Jw0XRKVFfAYamce80nJUXwNSGSgUi089hfi8FkptCm76Hnt1iI8PnVpjsTrBFhchGjY5GydotvhCbDi6.yahoo.invalid>
Date: 7/1/08 9:44 AM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

Ray,

I'm not trying to rain on your parade & I'm certainly no expert in
the matter but according the the TCDS, the Limbach engine & Hoffmann
prop are required. There are no STC's listed for the G109 so that's
the only option with a standard airworthiness certificate unless your
prop was installed on field approval witha 337. I had the same
question regarding the engine being shown Amateur/Experimental
because I was considering the possibility of changing engines. The
way the FSDO explained it to me was that although the Airframe is
certificated the engine is not certificated in the US & is considered
a "required appliance of the airframe" & no deviation is allowed.
Since it is not a certificated engine they had to show it
experimental. Perhaps the previous owner & particularly the IA who
signed of the last anual can shed more light but it appears to me (&
again I'm no expert or even A&P) that unless there is a 337 covering
the prop change or your bird is experimental the combination may not
be legal to fly.

Bill

Subject: Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: Ray
Date: 7/2/08 7:15 AM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

Would the 337's show up in the FAA aircraft records?

I ordered the full documentation from the FAA and need to go through it in detail again as there is quite a stack of info about it.

Looks like I might have to fill out my own 337 for the prop if its not on file with the FAA.

You said that the engine is uncertified but a required appliance... does that mean that substitutions are possible? Perhaps an Aerovee equivalent which is essentially a similar engine in HP & Performance?

Ray

Subject: Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: "mahkceb30062" <beckham@o5zDbj3VoqNtOuuJcDDtk2CXC-0iN6ehaGON0m7VmuICvbYNbb8_dnqWz2eu_20UQpz3ULuqj37OeH1d.yahoo.invalid>
Date: 7/2/08 9:34 AM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

Ray,

I don't know if the 337's show up in the FAA but I do not believe that
they do. It's very doubtful that you can get field approval on that
prop. It reduces your cruise & ROC substantially & field approvals are
hard to get now anyway, at least in my area. Engine substitution is not
an option according to my FSDO. The TCDS
(http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.n
sf/0/E1E3375D6186FE8E8525671D006F6C83?OpenDocument) requires the
specific Limbach engine & prop combination, there can be no deviation
without field approval or STC. The way I understand it (and again I'm
no expert) the only way you could change the engine or prop would be by
field approval on a 337 or by going Experimental which would still
require inspection & approval.

I think your best bet at this point is the AI who signed off the last
annual. It's pretty much on his shoulders as to why it was approved. Is
there any log book entry for the prop installation & if so, who signed
it? All this is the reason a good pre-buy inspection is necessary. A
good A&P would have surely caught this.

Hope this helps but I know it's not the answer you wanted. Perhaps
someone with more knowledge than I (I always rely on my IA) could chime
in but my advice is to speak to an A&P/IA and/or your FSDO.

Subject: Re: Happy new Grob 109 owner
From: "williamberson" <whodunit@VSLD1vjKn7w8eiNVJTU3xsHa8T6ZZdmjntY2O6WwMFjHyNakwNxi9ztwOsQ-Rh-nI12MPyuJlL6vl0Ro.yahoo.invalid>
Date: 7/2/08 1:09 PM
To: G109_Pilots@yahoogroups.com

The certification procedures for a powered glider are obviously looser than what would be
required for an airplane. The single magneto is one example. The use of automotive parts
and supplies is another example.
The powered glider standards could require substantial research to fully understand. Some
local FAA inspectors may not have the time for this research or may not agree with some of
these standards that are contrary to airplane standards.

The data plate on top of the engine gives the certification approval information.
Bill